India vs China: Which is the best role model for the developing world?

China is the Michael Jordan of emerging markets (Wilson Chu/REUTERS)

China is the Michael Jordan of emerging economies. Just as every up-and-coming basketball hopeful wanted to “be like Mike,” every up-and-coming poor nation wants to “be like China.” And why not? China has boasted an incredible record of alleviating poverty, building industry, creating jobs, and translating economic power into political power. The rise of China has made the West doubt the continued validity of its cherished principles of democratic, fee-market capitalism. Instead, some believe that China’s state-heavy, semi-market economy — or “state capitalism” — is better suited to the demands of the modern world. The old “Washington Consensus,” based on a devotion to free markets and free enterprise, is being replaced by the “Beijing Consensus.”

But is China’s Beijing Consensus really the winning formula for poor nations? Larry Summers, Obama’s assistant on economic policy, raised the idea in a recent speech that India’s political-economic model, which he labeled the “Mumbai Consensus,” may in the end win the day:

And perhaps – perhaps – in 2040, the discussion will be less about the Washington Consensus or the Beijing Consensus, than about the Mumbai Consensus – a third way not based on ideas of laissez-faire capitalism that have proven obsolete or ideas of authoritarian capitalism that ultimately will prove not to be enduringly successful. Instead, a Mumbai Consensus based on the idea of a democratic developmental state, driven not by a mercantilist emphasis on exports, but a people-centered emphasis on growing levels of consumptions and a widening middle class.

So what’s a better model for the developing world – the Mumbai Consensus or the Beijing Consensus?

In the inevitable comparisons between the world’s two largest countries and two fastest-growing economies, India usually ends up on the losing end. India’s economic growth has consistently trailed China’s, and India hasn’t eradicated poverty as quickly as China, even when adjusting for the fact that India started its pro-growth reforms a dozen years after China. That’s led to a potentially dangerous level of frustration among India’s poor. India has struggled to compete with China in large-scale, export-oriented manufacturing, and doesn’t attract as much foreign investment as China. The fractured government in India acts more slowly than China’s to implement policy or build much-needed infrastructure. Just compare Beijing’s ultra-organized 2008 Olympics to New Delhi’s embarrassing 2010 Commonwealth Games.

But at the same time, India’s economic system has some often ignored advantages over China’s:

More balanced growth. Whenever economists talk about China, they focus on the need to “rebalance.” That means China is too dependent on exports and investment for its growth, and needs to increase the role of private consumption to make its growth more balanced. India is already where China wants to be. Consumer spending plays a much bigger role in India’s economy than in China’s. Thus India doesn’t have to implement policies that distort the global economy (like China does with its currency regime). India, in fact, buys more from the rest of the world than it sells. India’s growth is thus less susceptible to shocks from the international economy.

More rational companies and banks. Under China’s “state capitalism,” the state-owned banking system and big companies can easily fall victim to government mandates and policy priorities, leading to problems like asset bubbles, excess capacity and a weakened financial system. India’s companies are more focused on profitability than China’s (as you can see from this chart). Historically India’s banks tend to have lower levels of bad loans, and though China’s nonperforming loan ratio has improved dramatically in recent years,  serious concerns remain that the big government-sponsored credit boom of 2009, aimed at boosting growth during the Great Recession, could eat into Chinese banks’ balance sheets in coming years.  The private sector in India also has a lower level of debt. According to data kindly provided to me by Fitch, bank credit to the private sector in China reached 148% of GDP in 2009 compared to only 54% in India. I admit I’m making a sweeping generalization here — China does have its share of smart companies, from industrial giants like Geely to start-ups like Tencent. But I think it’s fair to argue that India’s corporate and banking sectors are more professional and healthier than China’s.

Democracy. Few things annoy me more than having to sit through mindless praise of China’s authoritarian political system, especially from Westerners who don’t live under one. Many businessmen believe that authoritarianism in China has been a necessary factor behind the economy’s rapid growth. But India proves that countries don’t need dictators to create rapid development and gains in human welfare. India’s raucous democracy has been able to produce one of the world’s best records of economic growth over the past two decades – and preserve people’s civil liberties in the process. I’m certain to get comments on this post complaining that India doesn’t have a true democracy, that it’s all corrupt and unjust. But people do vote and governments do change in India, and that means the vote of the average person does count. Perhaps the convoluted nature of India’s democratic policymaking is one reason why the economy doesn’t grow as quickly as China’s. But would you sacrifice human rights for the sake of an extra percentage point or two of GDP growth? (I wouldn’t.)

This isn’t to say that India doesn’t have problems that need fixing. Its state-owned enterprises are a mess and badly need privatization. Policymakers need to find way of spreading India’s growth miracle to parts of the nation still relatively untouched. But at the same time, it is hard to argue that the Mumbai Consensus isn’t a serious rival to the Beijing Consensus.

Related Topics: emerging markets, Economy & Policy
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  • http://stephenpoo.wordpress.com stephenpoo

    Michael: have you seen any examples from the region we could adopt here?
    Our laissez-faire capitalism is failing labor.

  • vbierschwale

    Let me get this straight.
    Time, an American born company and CNN, a American born company are now advocating this future?

    http://keepamericaatwork.com/?p=10576

    Shame on you

    Virgil
    http://www.KeepAmericaAtWork.com

  • headybrew

    In my interpretation of his commentary, I don’t feel as though Mr. Schuman is advocating either country’s system as being the path that the US should follow. As the title states he’s asking which is the better “model for the developing world.” The US doesn’t fall into the “developing world” category. The US is still the number 1 economy in the world (for now anyways). But China is closing the gap.

  • http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com Rodger Malcolm Mitchell

    The link suggested by vbierschwale makes three points:
    Federal taxing is bad.
    Federal spending is bad.
    Federal borrowing is bad.
    .
    The facts are:
    Federal taxing is bad (It removes money from the economy)
    Federal spending is good (It adds money to the economy)
    Federal borrowing is useless and misleading. See: Spending vs. borrowing

    Rodger Malcolm Mitchell

  • joshuareiss

    The author in this article and some economists seem in complete ignorance of the fact that China has the largest automobile market, the largest cell phone market, the largest TV market, the largest computer market, the largest agriculture product market… In fact it is hard to find that China is not number 1 or number 2 market of any significant products. If this is not consumption, what else should be? In contrast, the automobile market in India is a pigmy (15% of chinese market) in comparison with China’s. India market sizes are lagging behind China’s in almost every single category, and is praised as consumption driven. The reason for that is lack of production competiveness in India, and there is not much to export. I think that Schuman and Summer feel too much heat from China, and cling to a lesser opponent for the relief. A country with economic growth of 8% but still has a children malnutrition rate of 43% is model of epic disaster, not envy.

  • keefanda

    Government ownership of key strategic industries is why China will dominate. Why? Private corporations care not for the general welfare, only for their own welfare, which is many times at odds with the general welfare. So when government owns essentially all the big corporations in all the key strategic sectors like central banking, commercial and investment banking, armaments, power generation and distribution, oil and petrochemicals, telecommunications, coal, aviation and shipping industries, as it does in China, government can make sure that the corporations in these industries do not act against the general welfare assuming that government itself is acting in the interest of the general welfare. (This control of the strategic industries is so complete, 99 of the largest corporations in China trading in the stock exchanges are majority owned by Chinese government).

    And all this ownership – including especially ownership of central, commercial, and investment banking – generates vast wealth and income for government way beyond what mere taxes could bring. This is actually a good thing, since it makes the potential problem of sovereign debt pretty much a problem that never materializes.

    Not only that, but ownership of central, commercial, and investment banking results in more credit to credit-worthy business than would otherwise occur, resulting in more economic activity than would otherwise occur, resulting in more tax revenue than would otherwise occur, even without raising tax rates. What this means is that higher rates of non-performing loans can in the long run pay for themselves via the long term accumulating benefits of all this higher level of economic activity that would not occur from private ownership of banking. Note that government ownership of central banking is a backstop to all of this, providing the guarantee of never ending economic growth that is larger than could otherwise be.

    On this issue of government owned or public banking: Note that not only is public banking almost all banking in China (only about 1/4 of banking in India is public banking), but there is a large amount of public banking in Germany, and in the US, the Bank of North Dakota is owned and operated by the state of North Dakota. It therefore is no coincidence that Germany has long been the economic engine of Europe and is the first European country to start really growing again since the Great Recession, and China and North Dakota kept thriving and growing during the Great Recession – North Dakota is the only state in the US that is still thriving and whose state government is not in financial trouble.

    For some scholarly confirmation that public banking is actually the better way to go, Google with quotation marks:

    “Is Government Ownership of Banks Really Harmful to Growth?”

    By Svetlana Andrianova, Panicos Demetriades, and Anja Shortland. They show that if anything, government ownership of banking is associated with higher growth.

    Also check out these articles – Google with quotation marks:

    “THE GROWING MOVEMENT FOR PUBLICLY-OWNED BANKS”

    “CASH-STARVED STATES NEED TO PLAY THE BANKING GAME: NORTH DAKOTA SHOWS HOW”

    “ESCAPE FROM POTTERSVILLE: THE NORTH DAKOTA MODEL FOR CAPITALIZING COMMUNITY BANKS”

    “REVIVING THE LOCAL ECONOMY WITH PUBLICLY-OWNED BANKS”

    “THE PUBLIC OPTION IN BANKING: HOW WE CAN BEAT WALL STREET AT ITS OWN GAME”

    “HOW CALIFORNIA COULD TURN ITS IOU’S INTO DOLLARS”

    “FROM SUNSHINE STATE TO SUBPRIME STATE? THE SUN COULD SHINE AGAIN ON CALIFORNIA”

    “CALIFORNIA DREAMIN’: HOW THE STATE CAN BEAT ITS BUDGET WOES”

    “CALIFORNIA’S EMPTY WALLET: TURNING CRISIS INTO OPPORTUNITY”

    “BUT GOVERNOR, YOU CAN CREATE MONEY! JUST FORM YOUR OWN BANK”

    “THE SECRET OF CHINA’S MIRACLE ECONOMY: THE GOVERNMENT OWNS THE BANKS RATHER THAN THE REVERSE”

    “CASH-STARVED STATES NEED TO PLAY THE BANKING GAME: NORTH DAKOTA SHOWS HOW”

    “CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE: THE DIRECT WAY TO FIX THE CREDIT CRISIS”

    Perhaps the capitalist democracies with their sovereign debt problems need to learn from all this – or find that although the old Soviet Union did not bury The West, maybe some day China will.

  • duduong

    It is totally valid to question the long-term sustainability of China’s rise, as the extreme centralization of power can accelerate decline as well as growth. It is total lunacy, however, to claim that India will serve as the model of economic development for the world.

    Throughout the human history, the most advanced civilization has been either the west or China, never anywhere else. The main reason is that only these two regions developed a tradition of strong central authority that actually cares about governing instead of conquering. India has no such tradition, and the many ills (corruption, iliteracy, social caste division, poverty, short-term focus, etc.) are simply consequences of not developing a proper advanced culture in its history. To compare India with the true leaders of mankind just because it finally reaches 8% of economic growth shows, once again, how shallow and inept American economists are.

    For an in-depth comparison among cultural developments of major civilization, read “Why the West rules — for now”.

  • http://morevirtual.wordpress.com Sandeep Chauhan

    duduong: Where did you get this from : “Throughout the human history, the most advanced civilization has been either the west or China, never anywhere else” ?

    We live in “present”…not in the “past”. Therefore it doesnt matter who was great / big in the past. But since you have brought this topic anyway…so let me give you some pointers:

    http://www.amazingincredibleindia.com/doyou-india.html

    As I said before…we live in present…and strive for good future. So the past is not that important. But still…a good read for you.

  • http://sociallypositive.wordpress.com sociallypositive

    WOW dudong! you have to be the dumbest human being I have come across in a loong time. Fact check time brother!

  • http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com Rodger Malcolm Mitchell

    Does Egypt count?

    Rodger Malcolm Mitchell

  • dengrenfei2007

    I don’t think that there is a perfect model in the world.Different patterns in different country,any of them is modifying along with the time.

  • cinderalla80

    Thanks for expressing my view as well.

  • howardxue

    I’m waiting for Michael’s next post about “Lagos Consensus”, “Jarkata Consensus”, “San Polo Consensus”, or “Kabul Consensus” and “Bagdad Consensus”. All these economies, Nigeria, Indonesia, Brazil, Afghanistan, Iraq now are much more democratic than China. LOL…

    Congratulations to the poor Indian people, especially those Kashmirs, who can enjoy their “human rights” which are much appreciated by Mr.this author.

    Forget about the Caste system and the malnourished babies, as long as you can vote every a few years, even though you can’t read and write, and know nothing about the guys you vote. Election period is good for you bacause you can get a $10 bill from someone when you vote him in.

  • howardxue

    Why Maoists are getting popular and keep winning regional elections in many states in India? Nothing annoys me more than the hurting fact that so many Indian people support Communists.
    And what happened to those people in the violence in Kashmir, when they are already enjoying their human rights under a democracy?
    The Reliance family’s 27 story mansion in Mumbai, built with their own huge power generators, safeguarded by machine guns, and surrounded by slums, is the perfect picture to show what the “Mumbai Consensus” is about.

  • shibha

    What did Kashmiris suffer from that other people in India did not ? What extra rights do Indian not living in Kashmir have that they don’t ?

    In one line you detest communism and then you worry about wealthy having mansions around slums.

    Any way, I will move away from negativity and say this about other things you mentioned : wealth always brings more justice, more stable society, and hoping economic progress will bring the social indicators up.

  • http://krishgovind.wordpress.com krishgovind

    “Forget about the Caste system”

    I pity your ignorance due extreme prejudice when you talk of caste system as though it is an evil.

    Mark my words the very strength of the caste system will propel India as one of the top economic performers and all your prophecy of doom will prove wrong.

    I quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Indian_caste_system to enlighten about the caste system.

    “The Varna system, with its normative interpretation as a division of labor, had and continues to have a heavy bias towards spiritual evolution. The deep religious proclivities and the urge for spiritual uplift had induced the people to search for simpler and effective ways to achieve the spiritual goal which led to innovations like the Bhakti movement which had a powerful impact on the socio-cultural-spiritual life of the people even at mass level without distinctions of caste or class or other social differences. It is these deeply run cultural roots which caused an abiding following for Hinduism even in the face of unrelenting assaults by other religions and had in fact continued to influence the lives of people even after their conversion to other faiths. Thus, the caste system can be said to have preserved ancient cultural values in Indian society.

    The caste system played an influential role in shaping economic activities. The caste system functioned much like medieval European guilds, ensuring the division of labour, providing for the training of apprentices and, in some cases, allowing manufacturers to achieve narrow specialisation. For instance, in certain regions, producing each variety of cloth was the speciality of a particular sub-caste.

    Philosophers argue that the majority of people would be comfortable in stratified endogamous groups and have been in ancient times. Membership in a particular caste, with its associated narrative, history and genealogy would instill in its members a sense of group accomplishment and cultural pride. Such sentiments are routinely expressed by the Marathas, for instance.”

    The evil of untouchability basing which the entire cast system is condemned, is severely punishable offence in India and surely on its way out.

  • phead128

    I LEARNED THIS IN MY GLOBALIZATION CLASS.

    China is following the East Asian Developmental State model pioneered by Japan, S. Korea, and Taiwan during the 60′s, 70′s, and 80′s.

    There is 1 in 10,000 chances the economic miracle can be so regionally clustered in one geographic area as in East Asia (China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, HK, Singapore, etc…)

    So which is a better model?

    NONE.

    Most other developing nations who tried to emulate the East Asian Developmental State has failed horribly.

    It depends on your countries timing, political, and economic situation as well as the world’s geopolitical and regional dynamics, as well as culture is important.

    By asking such a retarded question, the author clearly does not know what he is talking about, nor has he taken a class on Globalization.

  • phead128

    I agree.

    India is hardly a model for developing countries.

    China lifted more people out of poverty than all the aids programs throughout the world combined.
    There is more poor Indians living in extreme poverty than all the poor people in Sub-Saharan Africa. Nearly half of the world’s poor live in India.

    China on the other hand lifted 600 million people (10% of the world’s population) out of poverty in just 25 years.
    China’s poverty rate dropped from 85% in 1982 to just 15% in 2005.

    China’s rise is unrivaled, and even moved Indian to reform here economy based on the opening up of the Chinese economy.

  • http://krishgovind.wordpress.com krishgovind

    “Why Maoists are getting popular and keep winning regional elections in many states in India? ”

    What the basis of your claim? You are confusing communists with Maoists.

    What if people vote for communists? The state of Kerala often ruled by elected Communists have an enviable track record for equitable growth which emphasised land reforms, poverty reduction, educational access and child welfare.

  • phead128

    Think about this.

    CHINA:

    - China lifted 600 million people out of poverty in just 25 years (10% of the world’s population)

    - China lifted more people out of poverty than all the aids programs throughout the world.

    - China dropped her poverty rate from 85% in 1982 to just 3% in 2010.

    ———

    INDIA:

    - Half of the world’s poor live in India.

    - More Indian people in poverty than all of Sub-Saharan African poor combined.

    - 800 million Indians live under $1.25 dollars per day.

    —————-

    There is no comparison, China is 5 times bigger in GDP, yet grows longer, more sustained, and greater economic growth than India.

    China is in a different league compared to India, there is no comparison.

  • elsid3

    Frankly, any comparison of India with China misses a fundamental point. The history and culture of India demands a secular, plularistic model because it is not a monolythic people, who will take orders from one person. Democracy is the only system that is available to India , despite all the ills that come with it, including cumbersome rules and regulations and perceived chaos. In my view, India is a true wonder and that a billion plus people of different languages,religion,cultures etc can have common cause is hard to explain. Therefore comparisons between India and China is futile because each has evolved what works for its people

  • http://betheway.wordpress.com betheway

    The reason why China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, HK and Singapore are able to perform well is due to adoption of Confuciusism Model. China being the birthplace of Confuciusism is no doubt pulling ahead of everybody.

    Meanwhile the only other country greatly influenced by Ancient China that is still not in the list is Vietnam.

    For all the brohaha about India Consensus, seriously it is more a case of self-aggrandizing. With chronic overpopulation, caste discrimination, poverty and etc, the bet is that india will not make it.

  • http://karna88.wordpress.com karna88

    I’ve lived in various parts of India- my hometown is in the east-dominated by the Maoists, I attended college in the Northeast-also troubled by insurgency, and am currently working in the Western state of Gujarat. I find I more or less agree with what Mr. Michael Schuman says here. I’m no student of economics, but from what little I can reason out, the development model of the Chinese is highly unlikely to work out for most of the developing world. Can you imagine a situation wherein the developing/underdeveloped were alll run by dictatorial governments? The Chinese government, undoubtedly successful, is already a headache for most of the world-ask the Indians- they claim ownership of a lot of Indian territory-and already occupy a third of the land area in Kashmir. If more governments like it start springing up, they will find it much tougher to find their feet in this increasingly globalized world.
    Now coming to India- many of you have derided the Indian model as being simply a big failure. Well then do you have an alternative? Granted, India has been extremely slow in its progress, but your comments seem to indicate there’s been no progress at all.
    The dissatisfied Maoist rebels you speak of are a relic of the late 80s when the Indian economy was on its knees due to suffocating protectionism. Now, even though development is taking place, albeit slowly, the rebels won’t just disappear, will they? That’s an entire generation which has taken up arms. But already villages in the remoter parts of Eastern India have become very frustrated with the Maoists who are supposed to be fighting for them. If you would care to research it, there are currently villages taking up arms against the Maoists now. And yes, please clear up your confusion b/w the Maoists and the communists-the communist party would be seriously offended!
    I won’t touch the Kashmir issue, as you appear to be dangerously misinformed, but I would encourage you to dig the issue a little deeper.
    I could go on and on, but I don’t think I’m good enough to convince you. But, as a parting argument, I would like you to consider the problems which India has had to fight against to achieve this progress-corruption, an uncertain public policy, extreme poverty, illiteracy, an incredibly wide diversity of people living together-each increasingly vocal about its identity, and lastly, but most importantly, the ever growing population.

    P.S.: what was that about the west and china being the only advanced civilizations??…I doubt the west would acknowledge that, and what the hell happened to Egypt, India, the middle East, not to speak of the Americas???

  • http://willbeatya.wordpress.com willbeatya

    The Beijing Consensus is a very difficult model to emulate for other developing countries let alone the developed world. It takes great leadership and benevolent leaders in the government to think of people’s welfare first before themselves. It takes alot of planning for the development of the countries for the betterment of society at large. The central government must be upright and transparent (at least among their politburo) in their actions. Corruption, nepotism, greed, waste and other vices are enemies of society and must be a goal of the central government to destroy and eliminate.

    The idea of the Beijing Consensus is very much link to the Confucius ideology wherein the central government is perceive as the strong father and the general population of which must abide by the philosophy of ‘felial piety.’ The term ‘felial piety’ is a very difficult concept for people living outside of East Asia to comprehend. That is why I said that the Beijing Consensus is not easy to emulate without first understanding Confucianism. It is not a question of sacrifing one rights but rather if your welfare is taken care of one should not question your father’s authority. Most Chinese at this juncture care less of free speech and freedom to elect their leader. The Chinese people thrive in any situation so long as the condition is stable, meaning a strong government that would leave them to do their thing.

    Unfortunately, India has its Caste System which is totally in contradiction with Confucisnism. The upper caste will continued to dominate the lower caste. There is no equality among the different classes but only among their own class. India will thrive but in its own way as prescribed by its own ‘Mumbai Consensus’ that will be difficult to emulate by other developing countries. Certainly country like Nigeria or Kenya would not want

  • 49thstate

    Martin Jaques in his book ‘When China Rules the World’ indicates that Chinese have an enduring superiority complex, which others will have to contend with as their power and influence increases…So thanks to Dudong for the eloquently chauvanistic comment. However, Dudong needs to study world history better. The West and China have been enduring, major civilizations in world history, but it has not been a duopoly. Read great world historians such as Braudel or Fernandez-Armestos and you will appreciate that there have been other great and enduring civilizations, including India. I must add, however, that there are many honorable exceptions to these chauvanistic attitudes. An example is the writer Lin Yutang and his books ‘The Wisdom of India and China’. Yutang makes some interesting remarks (decades ago) about why he placed India first in the title (it was courtesy, respect and to counter preconceived notions of China’s superiority).

  • annunik

    People who are commenting about India’s failures talk about caste system and how it will fail India. I feel pity for them as they know nothing about it. They take some media hyped incidences and add their imagination. Many of the top posts are held by people from lower castes and brahmins are economically poor than the other castes. Indian happiness thankfully is not attached to too much consumerism and I hope it never is.

    And about malnutrition, indian babies are genetically small and even my own son is always in 25th percentile here. So western standard weights and happiness are not applicable in India. India has problems with corruption and the populace is passive about it. Many of the issues are due to that. The sectors need privatization and once it’s done, most of the issues will resolve itself.

    And India was and is one of the greatest civilizations dugong.. West is a new entrant. I suggest some history reading.

  • annunik

    And to add to my comment, India should become more export oriented. Not sure why this is not done. Anyway, I hope indians never fall into trap of credit, buying big screen tvs, unnecessary cars and translating these into happiness. They need to ditch the british influenced education and legal system and go back to their roots.

  • http://mugiwara3d2y.wordpress.com mugiwara3d2y

    no country is perfect. no system is perfect. there is no ideal model for developing nations, as each have their own unique set of problems, colored by their history and culture. China’s system is admirable because it has achieved tremendous growth within a relatively short period of time and has uplifted hundreds of millions from poverty. India has a functioning democracy – no matter how much one bitches about how there’s Maoist troubles or violence in Kashmir (and these are issues to be dealt with, of course) but in a country with over a billion people, with literally dozens of regional languages and cultural differences, there’s a functioning democracy. that is undeniable. saying that poor, uneducated people vote on being paid rs. 10 is an oversimplification. no other country has as many diverse groups as India – not even a fraction. for example, Belgium is considered to be a very diverse country in Europe – there are three languages. in India there are more languages than all the fingers and toes on your hands and feet – and there are dialects within them that are so different that they are practically distinct languages. there are problems – grave ones. and there’s no denying that China’s economy is far superior – today. But you wont find that media in India unable to report that Ambani’s ridiculous tower is vanity, that some politician or bureaucrat is corrupt. You wont find the need for the Nobel Peace committee to confer the Nobel prize to a political activist in jail since he will already be fighting to get the votes. there are riots, but you will find the judiciary system crank out justice (excruciatingly slowly) via endless committees. it may be tragic but it doesn’t subtract from any of the positives. there’s caste-ism, but then there’s reservation for both the ‘lower’ castes as well as the poor. poor are many and hungry – but there’s effort on to try and overcome it. the point i a making is that countries aren’t like numbers – you cant add and subtract their good and bad aspects. they are all part of an imperfect people. one day, there will be electricity in all of India’s villages. there will be fewer people hungry. health care and education will be good and affordable for everyone. but it will regrettably take time. China may one day have a free press, the western parts may become as prosperous as the eastern coastal ones, there may be political freedom, and all that will also take time. in the meantime, invest your money where it seems it will benefit you the most. and while your money is working for you, go help out in one of the soup kitchens that are trying to fend for the 643,000 homeless people in America.

  • duduong

    Sociallypositive: Your pure name calling comment is not even wrong. There is no proper reply to it other than to recommend seeing a psychiatrist.

    Rodger Malcolm: “The West” has many definitions, but here I mean the culture lineage that started in Mesopotamia, was carried through Egypt, Greece, Roman, Western Europe and finally spreaded to America, Australia, South Africa and NZ. The west led the mankind for its entire history with the exception of the 1200 years between the 5th century c.e. to the 17th, when China led the world.

    49thstate: I think if the world takes a vote, the nation with the greatest superiority complex has to be the US. China does not have a domestic sports league that calls its annual championship games the “world Series”. Besides, what does superiority complex has to do with the issue other than serving as an ad hominem attack? Do you have any relevant facts to raise here? Vague praises for Indian “wisdom” have nothing to do with long-term growth potentials of civilizations.

    Sandeep Chauha…: There is actually an index of culture development that works very well for all cultures through human history. See the book “Why the West rules — for now” for details. With a quantified measure, it becomes quite clear that the human world has been and continues to be a duopoly between the west and the east (China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, etc). South Asia never has and still doesn’t come close. Maybe in a hundred years, things will be different, but there is simply no obvious reason to believe that a trend which has survives so long should be broken now. I am talking scientific facts here, not wishful thinking, so events like a nuclear war that wipes out everyone except Indians are not considered. Also, culture development is neither good nor bad, neither superior nor inferior. It is simply a concept that can be measured scientifically and used to project a forecast. The reasonable forecast right now is for either the east or the west to lead mankind in the next hundred years. Sometimes, even the wish of a billion people is doomed to disappointment. For an example, see CWG2010.

  • seachinese

    The title should reads: “Western-style, multi-party, electoral democracy vs. Chinese-style, non-electoral, meritocratic democracy: What is the best model?”

    However, it is not a Chinese behavior to preach. Even as Chinese reforms not just the government system with considerations for Chinese culture and Chinese thought process but also its society, Chinese only have one simple message to other countries: Do not be afraid to create a system that best suit your own culture and your people’s thought process. Chinese system may not suit your country because you have different culture and your people do not think like Chinese do.

  • One Southeast Asian Chinese

    Perhaps because the west gave the concept of “democracy” a structure, i.e. multi-party, electoral, very early on does not mean that “democracy” can have only one form.

    Luckily, Chinese characters for “democracy” is not loaded with that structure. Its meaning can be expanded to mean that citizens who have the capability, intelligence and the ability to serve in the government system should have equal access and opportunity to be in the system. In fact, there are better ways to realize this. Western-style, multi-party and electoral system is but one way.

    But this Western-style democracy requires a country who adopts this system to have a cultural/religious base (Judeo-Christian combined with Creeko-Roman individualistic thought process) similar to that of the west. Countries that do not have this base have failed to achieve results like that of the west. Worst still, countries that copied this western-style democracy either do not have the capability to critique and to debate its inner working parts, or mangled it with their indigenious stuffs.

    Chinese now believe that a government system is not a stagnant system; it needs to be flexible and be modified as situation changes. A system that the people cannot modified or modified successfully is a “failed” system.

  • 49thstate

    Duduong,

    You lack the learning and emotional maturity to carry on a reasoned and intelligent debate. There is a vast literature that crosses many disciplines about the favorable and unfavorable conditions inherited by many regions to promote or inhibit modern economic development. You need to study these before you make grand pronouncements…yes East Asia has many favorable inheritances, but may have terrible weaknesses also. Read Gary G. Hamilton’s work “Civilization and Economies”. India certainly has many weaknesses and may or may not be able to sustain its economic development. Hubris is not unique to China, but it is deeply embedded, perhaps not surprisingly, according to Jacques (whose work is very admiring of the long run story of China), given its long civilizational continuity.

    As Pope said: “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing….drink deep or taste not the Pierian Spring, its shallow drafts intoxicate the brain…”.

  • duduong

    49thstate: You bore me. Only those who have no facts resort to personal attack. Yet, it is truly rare to meet someone who start and finish an argument with nothing but attacks. I can only conclude that I touched a raw nerve and therefore you are an Indian. To show how vast your ignorance is, I will simply mention here that duduong is not even a Chinese word; it is vietnamese, and I am American, with an education and qualification well beyond your wildest dream. The people you quoted would be horrified to find how you twisted their words. So, unless you somehow find enough decency to discuss real facts for a change, I would just end this line of fruitless exchange with a recommendation for you to enroll in adult education and learn how to conduct logical debates.

  • 49thstate

    The authors theme is about models for regions of the developing world which are beset with many disadvantages…one advantage they all have though is the benefit of catch-up growth, which enables them to grow faster than the original industrializers. Models provided by one country may have little validity for other regions given great differences of culture, history etc…It is still an interesting question for the author to pose. India may not be an economic model or success story, but its experience in coping with diversity and attendant conflicts may be relevant to many developing regions as they attempt to create durable social orders.

  • duduong

    Thanks for these refreshingly sensible comments from you. I agree that the Beijing concensus requires an exceptionally strong government that is rarely possible in the developing world. The Indian model is often much more practical. Still, this strong central control is a huge advantage. If (albeit a big if) the Chinese Communist Party can continue to guide its nation’s course wisely, China will outgrow all rivals in the foreseeable future economically, culturally, scientifically and militarily. The only other real contender for the most advanced civilization title in 2100 still looks like the US.

  • 49thstate

    Robert Axelrod of the Univ. of Michigan conducted a series of computer simulations indicating that in a world of mutually influencing cultures, in the long-run high degrees of convergence were predicted. I asked Axelrod if this meant that the much-maligned modernization hypothesis would actually come true. He said that it was likely, with the caveat of events such as war disrupting the process. So the world of 2100, unless plagued by dramatic reversals of globalization trends, is more likely to be one of centripetal forces creating a global civilization, rather than the distinctive categories we speak of today.

    On a personal note, whether you are Vietnamese, Chinese, American, or a combination thereof, I tip my hat in respect to your rich cultural inheritance and to the personal educational attainments to which you allude.

  • http://anjuchandel.wordpress.com anjuchandel

    “Mumbai Consensus” could seem a credible alternative to “Beijing Consensus” at the moment keeping the “democracy” angle in view. However, till India suffers from its deep-seated (genetic, now) colossal corruption, the country cannot move forward.

    Talking in terms of percentage of people being brought in the above-the-poverty-line bracket is massively misleading. If you talk in absolute numbers then India tops the chart in every misery which could ail and inflict humanity! You have to be an unfortunate Indian living in India to experience the real truth.

    Nevertheless, it is also absolutely true that India indeed has all the capabilities to become a force to reckon with in the global arena, But, for India to become a superpower, politicians need to be kept out of its politics! And that’s a distant – almost impossible – possibility.

    The 5 Ps debilitating India are: Politicians, Police, Population, Poverty and Pollution!

  • http://viswanat.wordpress.com viswanat

    Invariably on any post involving India and China, people tend to leave the core subject matter of the column and start commenting on India or China, which is the better or superior country.

    In this blog the author has put forward a thought for discussion as to which political-economic model is more suitable for developing economies. Is it Chinese state run or India’s democratic developmental state.

    I would like to ask readers to see India and China as two different sets of markets, China-Manufacturing driven (so has become subject of debate on whether or not to grant sanctions for its carbon emissions due to manufacturing, to satisfy the developed countries needs) and India the back office of the developed countries or the IT hub. So India and China are not competitive but complementary in supporting the developed countries needs and for their own economic growth.

    I also dis-agree that India is not attracting investments, but would ask the people who make such comments to understand the FDI (Foreign Direct Investment) policy that controls or carefully allows investment to drive a stable economy rather than the economies we see today facing economic crisis.

    India has a more stable banking system unaffected by the recent recessionary trends outside India.

    On the point that Indian state owned enterprises (SOE’s) are doing bad, remember that Indian SOE’s play a big role in employment for Indians. Railways the largest or may the worlds biggest employer and like wise many SOE’s are driven by the service or people orineted. Yes now if one observes the developments on these public sectors, many of these are subjected for better performance and railways itself has become a case for study for its recent turnaround performance.

    I would conclude with a note that India has robust and steadily growing economy with its USP different to that of China’s. So instead of debating on which is better its worth to think as to which economic model will suit the developing country in discussion and adapt a sutiable one from India or China or any other country.

  • ananddayalan

    More than 500 million people in India doesn’t have access to toilet and clean water. Fucking corrupted Indian government.

  • http://mugiwara3d2y.wordpress.com mugiwara3d2y

    Very true. I am of the opinion that the strongly centralised govenment system can only work well for a people who have a collective way of thinking rather than the western – read individualistic – way. India is a different story because the sheer diversity of the country necessitates at least partly provincial nature of the government as well as a stronger central government to tackle country wide problems and inter region confilicts .but it cannot be not overwhelmingly monolithic as its simply not practical. US is a curious case because it has historically been no. 1 (economically, militarily) for decades. It must now live in a world where other powers which may not share its moral and philosophical ideals have a growing influence. India and US do not ave any real issues apart from a few relatively smaller. China is a different story. US-China race is not merely a race for being the no’1 and the implications to peoples egos. It has more consequential aspects – in terms of what each country considers moral and what they see the world that follows them as. On the other hand, China is poised to over take US in many respects – first in economy (highly probable, but by no means a forgone conclusion), and later (and this is more iffy) in military. Government models do not just shape economies but a far larger sphere of interaction between the country and the rest of the world. Thus, the lesson is that the nature of the government is not a purely economic decision, especially for countries with larger aspirations than just uplifting the standard of living of their people. So, come 2100, I personally believe (and hope….. i guess that makes me optimistic?) that the world would more globalized than just its economy. culture, morals, and aspirations may converge offering solutions to most geopolitical problems of today. But for that to happen, this ‘race’ for the world no.1 must result into a mutually respectful multipole world with many prosperous and satisfied regions of power. but the biggest obstacles are the varied nature of governmental models ( mirroring the collective or individualistic thoughts, different ideals etc.). hence the question of the developing world adopting one or the other model or something else is broader than just eradicating want (which is of course an important priority). for them to be sustainable and robust, the models MUST reflect the aspirations and value systems of the people AND must meet any material needs. that is a difficult thing to achieve. China is already on its way. India may one day get there. But what happens then?

  • annunik

    Why blame politicians.. It’s the people who are passive. If I am ok with being abused, some one will of course abuse me. Why are west Bengal people electing communists over and over again instead of being so poor. All the 500 million or so poor people are concentrated in east India and Hindi belt. Why is that? Kerala is surviving only because of expat money, otherwise it’s another state with no domestic growth. On the other hand people in Gujarat are electing modi who has taken the state to great strides. Inspite of nehru family creating so many issues to india, why are Indians promoting dynastic policies. The fault lies with the passive populace. Not politicians alone.

  • annunik

    India’s strength and weakness are it’s diversity. It’s very hard to integrate a lot of people with language differences. At the same time, politicians in India thrive on these differences and people allow it. Recent case is rah Gandhi going to different states and praising one state over the other to promote his party. Absolutely disgusting..

  • duduong

    You have some sensible comments here. But going back to the author’s original point, I still think Summers is again espousing shallow, narrow and potentially harmful ivory tower view after wrecking Obama’s chance for real reforms by pushing a bank rescue that does not punish the guilty bankers. True, the Chinese model requires a strong central government, but the Indian model needs a stable democracy. It is a big question which one is easier to achieve.

    My feeling is that Summers does not care about any of these real-life issues. His sudden enthusiasm on the “Mumbai Consensus” is instead based on the fact that it conforms much better with the traditional economics orthodoxy of laissez faire government. But most of us realists no longer share that faith after the 2008 financial crash.

  • phead128

    World Bank says China’s developmental model has the following characteristics:

    1) High investment, esp. private investment.
    2) Superior productivity improvements.
    3) High quality of human capital through universal education.

    Add that with varying degree of market oriented and state-led growth, as well as monitoring performance, selective industry promotion, and getting the prices right, it’s the same as the East Asian developmental state as Japan, Korea, and Taiwan.

    China’s model is very similar to Taiwan’s model, and to a lesser extent, the Japanese and Korean models, both of which are tremendous successes.

    The Indian model – success that has no precedence. Who skips the manufacturing phase and jumps to services sector without industrial revolution?

    China’s model is a proven.
    India’s model is a flop.

  • sirajulislam1

    Indian civilisation once rivalled China and was pre-eminent in Asia. In 17th century, it led the world financially. But in 18th its share of global income had fallen, half that of China which then followed it into decline. By the end of 19th century, India, with 3.4% of global income, and China, with 5%, had been marginalised. China has now shown that a country can bounce back and India wants to catch up China as fast as it can. India has decided to throw in its lot with the United States in a spirit of pragmatism rather than any ideological conviction.
    India’s trade with the US rose, but trade with Russia, which was formerly its main partner, was grounded. India wants a lot more. Stunned by the speed with which the economy of China has taken off (in comparison to India’s 1% share of world trade, China enjoys 6%), India makes no secret of its desire to utilise its new relationship with the US to attract the investment that it lacks. FDI ratio in between China and India is nearly 12:1, although this may be an underestimate, since not all capital movements are recorded.

    India copied China’s example. Among other measures it has set up special, near tax-free economic zones, waived social protection and lowered customs duties. These measures have yielded results. There has been investment in IT services and in cars. But poverty feeds the Naxalite (‘Maoist’) movement in India, particularly in West Bengal, Orissa, Telangana (Andhra Pradesh) and, further north, in the state of Bihar on the frontier with Nepal. According to India, this is India’s most serious security problem. Indian borders are porous, but the country forgets to register the social causes of friction, especially the disastrous effects of modernisation upon rural areas. Thousands of farmers killed themselves in India, most often by swallowing pesticides, because they could not meet their debts. India exports cereals, yet more than half of its children are malnourished. Nearly half of Indians can neither read nor write while one-tenth of Chinese are illiterate. India ranks well below on the UN Human Development Index in comparison to China.

    Wholesale exclusion is the vulnerable point of India, and that could be the difference in model.

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    China is poor but it is beautiful

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  • yourguidetochina

    This is a great discussion.

    The way I judge this is by looking at how individuals are behaving.

    None of the Indian friends I know that have left India are eager to return. On the contrary, almost every Chinese person I know has at least entertained the option of returning to China.

    This seems like a resounding vote for China.

    http://www.YourGuideToChina.com

  • nlabc

    That was true, maybe even up to 5-6 years ago. Things have changed drastically. Many of the younger professionals (especially IT folks) were eager to go back and take care of aging parents, but now there is a general desire to go back, even if there is an adjustment period. There used to be a large number of marriage-age women who would gladly agree to an arranged marriage with a green-card holder or Indian-American. Now that has changed completely. There are still some categories of people, who are eager to emigrate, but a large number of the highly-qualified prefer to stay in India or look for an early opportunity to return.

  • http://anhuihng.wordpress.com anhuihng

    I worked with lots of indian friends, all of them are working hard to get their family here; and so far I haven’t seen any one planning to go back. According to my indian friends, those having a good life in indian are from top of the caste system; most of them won’t pursue a career outside the country. And if they were in US/Europe for education, their will have no hesitate to return upon graduation.

  • nlabc

    Most of the Hindu Indians you would interact with in this country would be higher caste persons, and would therefore be unlikely to characterize the Indian system as one in which they suffer exclusions due to their caste status (except as characterizing themselves as victims of ‘reverse discrimination’ after the Mandal Commission etc…further empowered lower castes with job quotas).

  • http://rosadon.wordpress.com rosadon

    good point. BUT you wrong, it’s not ignorance, actually it’s a skip, always.

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