What’s the Real Problem: Economics or Economists?

Has Economic theory failed Bernanke? (Jim Young/REUTERS)

Now that I know the answer to what Juan Williams meant by “Muslim garb,” I can focus on the other question that has been bugging me recently: Why haven’t low-interest rates boosted the economy?

Economists have long believed that lowering interest rates is one of the most forceful cures for a weak economy. Indeed, earlier this year I scolded another blogger for suggesting that low-interest rates were actually hurting the economic recovery, not helping. Yet, nearly two years after interest rates have been near zero, the economy seems stuck in a funk. Decades of economic research should tell us why low-interest rates aren’t doing what they are supposed to, and what should be done next. But that doesn’t seem to be the case. In a week, Bernanke & Co. head to their policy meeting and what the Federal Reserve should do next to boost the economy is a source of headed debate both inside and outside the Fed.

So why don’t economists know the answer? When I have big questions I don’t understand I and those who read this blog used to turn to two of the smartest people I have ever worked with Justin Fox and Barbara Kiviat. And thankfully this week we can. For the rest of this week, Justin and Barbara are guest blogging on Felix Salmon’s blog. This will be their second week of always thought-provoking posts. My favorites so far have been a number crunch from Justin that refutes the notion that spending caused the current budget deficit (the problem is taxes) and Barbara’s very good questioning of why people get so angry about minimum wage laws. But I’m surprised that Barbara has yet to respond to last week’s New York Times article about what’s the Economic X Factor. I’m hoping she soon will. Here’s why:

Like me, the article from the NY Times asks the question why can’t economists agree. The answer the article lands on is that basically the world is a complicated place and the study of economics is really not up to the task. Here’s the best part of the article:

Economics, Mr. Mankiw concludes, won’t tell us, definitively, whether Peter or Paula is paying too much, because an answer inevitably leads to matters of values, which inevitably leads to different answers.

This is not to suggest that economics is a total free-for-all, lacking a broad consensus on any subject. Polls of economists have found near unanimity on topics like tariffs and import quotas (bad), centralized economies (very bad) and flexible, floating exchange rates (very good). Nor is it fair to say that economists have done little to help in the latest crisis. A depression seemed possible two years ago, and thanks to the ideas of economists, that didn’t happen.

But economics will forever have to contend with the biggest X factor of all: people. As Mr. Solow notes, you feed people poison, and they die. But feed them a subsidy and there is no telling what will happen. Some will use it wisely, others perversely and some a mix of both.

Two months ago, Barbara Kiviat when she was still a Curious Capitalist took on basically the same question phrased in a slightly different way, Is Economics Ideological by Nature? Here’s what she concludes:

And when you think about it, it is a little odd that we think economics would be able to do these things. After all, the economy is as much a product of sociology and policy as it is pure-form economics. Yet we’d not expect a sociologist or a political scientist to be able to write a computer model to accurately capture system-wide decision-making. The conclusion I’ve come to: while economists may have an important perspective on whether it’s time for stimulus or austerity, maybe we should stop looking to them as if they are people who are in the ultimate position to know.

Both the New York Times piece and Barbara’s piece land heavily on the idea the economics does a very poor job of predicting the irrational behavior of individuals, and that’s why it fails. But Barbara doesn’t just raise the idea that economics is flawed but that economists themselves are flawed. She doesn’t quite embrace that that later notion, but I think it is a compelling conclusion to why economists so often disagree. Economists see the world through one lens, which is very often colored by their own biases. So the real behavior problem may not be with economics but with economists themselves.

Barbara?

Related Topics: federal reserve, Economy & Policy
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  • http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com Rodger Malcolm Mitchell

    The post demonstrates what is wrong with economics. When theory departs from reality, the economists attempt to change the reality.

    There is, in fact, no relationship between low interest rates and high economic growth. See the graph and explanation at: INTEREST / GDP.

    In fact, there looks to be some relationship between high interest rates and faster economic growth. How can this be? High rates force the government to pay more interest into the economy, which is stimulative.

    Rather that relying on theory, the economists would be better to analyze reality.

    Rodger Malcolm Mitchell

  • vbierschwale

    I think the real problem is that economist’s have not factored in the fact that one thing has changed here in America that was not in historical models that they follow.

    For instance, I’m currently working on a article where I take the averages from 1976 till present for Employed and Unemployed.

    As expected, unemployment is substantially higher than average unemployment.

    But what was not expected is that employment is also higher than average employment for all states.

    My theory is that when I subtract the average unemployment (or the ones that theoretically don’t want to work) from the current unemployment totals, I will be able to show exactly how many jobs have been sent offshore and which states have suffered the most because of the offshoring of jobs.

    This article can be found at the following link

    http://keepamericaatwork.com/?p=10307

    For those that would like to run their own analysis or help me get to the bottom of these numbers, you can email me at vbiersch@gmail.com and I will send you the spreadsheet I am using to produce these interesting charts.

    Virgil
    http://www.KeepAmericaAtWork.com

  • http://prestopundit.wordpress.com/ Greg Ransom

    Hayek showed that most economists were created fake “science” — he showed that their explanatory strategy did not fit the phenomena. When your causal explanatory strategy does not fit the phenomena what you have is garbage-in, garbage-out.

    The difference between Friedrich Hayek and Justin and Barbara are two things.

    1. Hayek not only points out the failure of current economics — Hayek _explains why)_ current economics fails as an explanatory enterprise.

    2. Unlike Barbara and Justin, rather than throw up his hands with the false idea that macroeconomic patterns can’t be understood — Hayek actually shows how macroeconomic patterns can be given a sound causal explanation.

  • http://prestopundit.wordpress.com/ Greg Ransom

    The problem with this is that economics doesn’t try to predict “irrational behavior” — “rationality” or “irrationality” can’t be the issue, because systematicity always exits in the economy regardless of changes in “rationality” or “irrationality”.

    You write.

    “Both the New York Times piece and Barbara’s piece land heavily on the idea the economics does a very poor job of predicting the irrational behavior of individuals, and that’s why it fails.”

  • tdhawk

    People don’t have money! (Cash cures problems.) A school-ager can understand the reasons (i.e. unemployment, high debt, low rates/returns).

    So my hunch is that Ivy educated economists, even community college economists, understand perfectly well the issues. Problem is “we must take our medicine” doesn’t sit well but that’s our reality. We’re either going to get it over with even more fiscal pain, or stretch it for decades muddling through.

  • http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com Rodger Malcolm Mitchell

    That is the “medicine-is-good-only-if-it’s-bitter” school of economics, which causes the unnecessary calls for austerity in monetarily sovereign nations.
    .
    Rodger Malcolm Mitchell

  • http://stephenpoo.wordpress.com stephenpoo

    Interest rates are where they need to be to stimulate and yet its not doing the trick.
    The economy remains flat and there is no confidence, no reason to ramp up production when products won’t sell. Everyone every were is afraid, and they tighten up spending like the body does the muscles when we face a dangerous situation.
    Keep the rates low so when or if something happens rates will be attractive.
    Maybe we will get lucky and something’s will just come togeather and get us going. Something out of the eyther, the stars line up and magic appears, we can hope.
    But if it don’t jell by it self, then it might take massive government spending to do the trick. World war 2 was a massive stimulas ending the depression, hopefully we can come up with a more constuctive prodject.

  • volkerh

    Stephen, just look up “liquidity trap”.
    You are going down the japan road.
    One of the more clever economists, Paul Krugmann, posts regularly about this stuff in his blog. During the last year or so, the topic has popped up several times.

    Apparently the problem is, that sometimes a zero interest rate isn’t low enough. So, the next thing to do would be to force real interest rates further down by creating inflation.

    By now, even people in the IMF start to think whether the current 2% inflation targets around the world are too low and might be upped to 4 or 5 %. This would raise interest rates and give central banks a bigger cushion when lowering rates in a crisis.

  • http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com Rodger Malcolm Mitchell

    stephenpoo and volkerh,
    .
    Contrary to popular belief, there is no relationship between low interest rates and high GDP growth. See: Interest vs. GDP Growth
    .
    Not only are low interest rates not associated with high economic growth, but to a slight degree the opposite seems to be true. There seems to be a small correlation between high interest rates and high GDP growth.
    .
    As you can see, the concept of a “liquidity trap” is a myth.
    .
    Rodger Malcolm Mitchell

  • atm0spheric

    A serious question deserving a careful answer.

    Economic theory is defective; economists make assumptions.

    The distinction between capital and revenue is a sound one. Unfortunately there is no distinction when it comes to representing them with the green stuff.

    Every housewife has to confront the balance between income and expenditure – so it is really easy to convince people that running a deficit is not a good long term idea. But sadly, the concept of ‘owing’ the deficit and having to ‘pay it back’ is flawed. If every country were to stimulate its economy pro rata, to whom would these deficits be ‘owed’?

    We need a certain amount of cash in circulation for the economy to work. Anybody who has set up a baby-sitting circle based on points for hours sitting knows that there has to be enough currency in circulation to facilitate trading. This currency is a lubricant.

    Participants who save up their points, or who generously carry on sitting when their kids no longer need sitters cause a problem. The locked up points stop the system working. If more points are created, the locked-up points if released by donation to other group members cause inflation – in the form of too few baby-sitting hours available to back up the points the participants have.

    Using one medium to both facilitate trade and to store wealth is the logical Achilles’ heel of our economy. Positive rates of interest exacerbate this logical problem, but we like them for the wealthy good feeling they give us – until the bubble bursts. And this bubble has nothing to do with misrepresentation of value, simply misunderstanding of the difference between the big pile of tokens in store, and the small pile of goods in store.

    Economic theory seems not to distinguish between the good feeling the confidence trickster can provide in return for payment, and the real utility provided by labour saving devices. The former is now widely (and in my view erroneously) described as added value – a limitless supply of good that can be conjured out of nothing, supposedly backing up the limiltless pile of wealth mathematically generated by interest rates.

    Tying interest rates to growth is a way of generating additonal lubricant pro-rata to the expansion of the economy, but not necessarily the wisest, since it encourages hoarding. Even the baby sitting circle solution of issuing each new member with 5 hours credit is a better way.

    Handing cash to banks at zero rate of interest, for them to lend out at high rates, is so disgracefully bad it is hard to know where to start the criticism. Much sounder in many ways would be the funding of meaningful capital assets such as the building of renewable or natural energy plants. Economists who assume that the funds will automatically stimulate maximum utility through the working of market forces are too naive. Apart from the syphoning off issue, market sophistication encourages entrepreneurs to supply the minimum utility in any package, so that a higher price can be charged for an ‘enhanced’ product. We even pay high salaries to executives who can tell us how to cripple our products to facilitate such a strategy!

    Then there is always the prostitution of patent legislation to lock up the ‘free’ market.

    The dream of growth and prosperity is too abstract to be honest. We all still work as much as we ever did, but on sillier things that make a few people very rich. True prosperity – growth greater than the numerical expansion of the population – should be manifest in more leisure. We will know we have sound economic theory and honest, competent economists when they forecast the four day working week for all – and when we spend more of our working resource caring for one another than we do building things or selling bogus benefits.

    And when we can retire earlier, not later!

  • robert1952

    Low interest rates are freaking us out! There is no where to go to provide for the future. The stock market is terrifying. Bond yields are low. The only thing a person within 15 years of retirement can think to do is increase savings. Increase borrowing? We’re not nuts!

  • Barbara Kiviat

    Hey, Steve. I answered your question over at Felix’s place: http://blogs.reuters.com/barbarakiviat/2010/10/27/why-economists-arent-the-answer-to-all-our-problems/. By the way, I like the new blog format. Pictures and bold font– looking sharp!

  • qqi239

    Only time will tell how smart are Justin and Barbara vs. the rest of the humanity, but as time passes we learn there there were some pretty smart guys out there.

    There was once a really smart fellow F.Bacon, I am sure you heard about him, but apparently, his ideas a way above the level of comprehension for a vast majority of economists. In particular his point was that if reality does not match you theory, it is a problem with a theory not with reality.

    Say, how many more years we will take as a given an idea that foreign governments are buying US paper because it is a great investment while discussing matters of deficit and trade imbalances?

  • waltwriston

    two books solve the problem, plus binary economics.

    Those books are, to be read one after another.

    For the Common Good: by Herman Daly and John Cobb JR, and then Frederick Soddy’s book: Wealth, Virtual Wealth, and Debt.

    Soddy won the Nobel Prize of Chemistry, and then used the principles of physic’s to reach solid comclusions. Like money (debt) doesn’t obey the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

  • waltwriston
  • waltwriston

    The main faulty, in my opinion is summed up in Daly’s PDF. Our economy is outgrowing the ecosystem in which it’s embedded in. The other and possibly more important point is the focus on short-term gains rather than long-sustainability.

    We’re more concerned about quick returns from natural capital we extract from the ecosystem NOW, inconsequence of this we’re in all probability depleting future resources that will be technologically feasible into the foreseeable future, but since firms only realize utilizable resource the future potential of yet to be used resource are being discarded without taking it future worth. Of course, it would hard to put a price on a resource that has zero utility, but we must put a price on natural capital! This is the fundamental flaw of economics and of the people that tout neoclassical economics.

    http://steadystate.org/wp-content/uploads/Daly_SciAmerican_FullWorldEconomics(1).pdf

  • http://economysflaw.wordpress.com Leonard C. Tekaat

    I am a retire economic analyst, and economic scholar, small businessman, investor, financier, and author. I have over forty years experience in the financial world.

    The Great Recession of 2008 was caused by the busting of a credit bubble. Similar to the credit bubble that created the Great Depression of the 1930s. It was not caused by under demand or oversupply like many recessions are. The economy did not go into a depression, because we the taxpayers loaned the banks, and financial institutions enough capital so they didn’t close their doors.

    WallStreet,the “bigboys,the “money”the “disadvantaged” and the Federal Reserve member banks get the “gold mine”. The middle class get the “shaft” (bill)’. The middle class and small business get foreclosed on and go bankrupt. They get to be unemployed, and have their taxes raised to pay the deficit down, and clean up the mess. The middle class is sick, and tired of getting the shaft.

    Are you upset enough to do something about it. If not for you. How about for your posterity. They will be paying off the deficit for the rest of their lives.

    There is a reason why low interest rates, a huge federal deficit, and two dificit spending stimulus programs have not worked as well as the economist, and the government had hoped.

    I have been writting since before TARP, and the first deficit spending stimulus plan was enacted, that deficit spending is not the correct stimulus for an economy that is in recession due to a busting of a credit bubble

    When the credit bubble burst, millions of people lose all of, or nearly all of their disposable income and, confidenec. This is what had to be repaired not a bunch of roads and bridges, to facilitate an economic recovery in the private sector. Businesses do not hire people until they see more people come through their doors willing and able to purchase their goods and services.

    I blog at a few sites If you are interested in learning more about what can be done to solve the foreclosure, and unemployment crisis, search Foreclosure and Unemployment Crisis Solved. I hope you will join with me, and my friends to correct the mistake President Obama, and the Congress is making by putting our great grandchildren into debt. There is another way to increase people’s disposable income, and confidence without creating more money, which will lead to inflation, and higher interest rates, and another recession.

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