Equity and prosperity, part 2

Like me, Jonathan Chait also liked parts of Jim Manzi’s epic right-leaning prescription for combining competitiveness with social equity. But Chait also identifies a major problem with a pillar of Manzi’s argument—that the U.S. has dramatically outperformed Western Europe economically since the dawn of the Reagan era:

[S]ince 1980, the original 15 members of the European Union saw their real per capita income grow by 58%. Real per capita GDP in the United States grew by… 63%. And that measure actually overstates the difference. The European Union does not include Switzerland, Norway or Iceland — three countries that clearly qualify as European social democracies. Those three countries had 71% growth in per capita GDP since 1980 — thanks to Isha Vij of the Center for American Progress for pointing this out to me — which, if added to the EU 15, would bring the growth record of the United States and the social democracies even closer to parity.

When you add in the fact that income inequality increased more in the U.S. than in Western Europe over that period, and that Western Europeans work fewer hours per week and take more vacations, it starts looking like the past three decades have been better for them than for us. Manzi is certainly right that there’s been more economic dynamism in the U.S. than in Europe over that period—we’ve got Intel and Microsoft and Apple and Google and Facebook and Twitter and they’ve got a bunch of big companies that have been around for 100 years and, well, SAP and Vodafone. But that dynamism has not delivered faster growth in living standards. Which is a bit of a puzzle. It’s an article of faith in Silicon Valley and at the Kauffman Foundation and among most journalists who write about business that entrepreneurialism and creative destruction bring growth. But there’s no law that says that growth is going to stay within the country’s borders or be equitably distributed.

Which is where governments come in. By investing in infrastructure (both physical and intellectual) they can keep more of the benefits of growth at home and by redistributing some of the wealth generated by growth they can spread the benefits more equitably. I’m not saying most governments do this well, although the Scandinavians have come pretty close in recent years. But none of Manzi’s four big reform ideas (unwind the government’s holdings in private companies; go for simple financial reforms that separate risky and essential activities, not lots of new regulations; give more freedom to public schools to design their own teaching approaches and compete with each other; and think of immigration as recruiting) are necessarily incompatible with Western European- (or Canadian- or Australian-) style social democracy.

Update: Manzi links to his response to Chait in the comments. His key point would seem to be this:

If we do consider per capita GDP, as noted in the piece, “economic output per person is now 20 to 25% higher in the U.S. than in Japan and the major European economies”. As Reihan Salam notes in his blog post on this, as of 1980 the consensus was that the U.S. and Europe should be converging on a reasonably common level of economic output per person. The roughly comparable growth rates in output per person over the past quarter century represent the unexpected maintenance of a U.S. lead.

Yeah, but I’d be interested in knowing if we maintained that lead in output per hour, since Western Europeans have chosen less work (and more vacation) over more pay, while Americans have done the opposite. And I know, I could probably figure out the answer by spending some time here. But I’m going to choose less work instead.

Related Topics: competitiveness, Economy & Policy
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  • jimmanzi

    Mr. Fox:

    Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed commentary. I have a reply to Jonathan’s post here:

    http://theamericanscene.com/2010/01/06/more-reactions-to-keeping-america-s-edge

    As per that post, I stand by the analysis and its implications as per my article, and show that the conclusions in those sentences hold under any reasonable analytical definitons of Europe, time periods and currency comparison methods, including those preferred by Mr. Chait.

    This is is not to say that the argument is “America – we’re always Number 1!”. In fact, central to the piece is the argument that the choice we face is, in mnay ways, tragic.

    Best,
    Jim Manzi

  • jimmanzi

    Mr. Fox:

    Thanks for your continued engagement on this.

    I think that is one important point, but as a first point, I think it is established by my reply that Europe (however we define it) has ceded massive global eocnomic share and the US has not.

    Your issue is well-taken. I’m a publcily-confessed Francophile. There are many aspects of European life that are superior to that of the US. The dilema is how to maintian social coherence while being able to continue to grow (in aggregate) rapidly.

    Best,
    Jim

  • http://twitter.com/foxjust Justin Fox

    I’ve been focusing on living standards as opposed to aggregate GDP just because that’s the part of the discussion that interests me most—and also because I think that aspect of the comparison between the U.S. and Europe has gotten short shrift (from me, among many others) over the past couple of decades. But you’re right: the fact that we have more babies and welcome more immigrants and work more hours than the Europeans do allows our nation to play a bigger relative role on the world stage. Which has got to be worth something.

  • jomiku

    Germany has become the world’s largest exporter during this time period though their economy is less than 1/4 ours. The US continues to make stuff – except in the obvious cases like textiles where the falloff is dramatic – but in the great boom of consumption our share of what is made has dropped and that’s true at the low, middle and high end. I don’t have the numbers handy but I wonder how much US production has shifted to foreign-owned and located here (e.g., cars). I don’t see those numbers on the BEA site.

    As for social coherence, what social coherence? We are the only advanced nation that doesn’t provide healthcare and much of the opposition seems to be rooted in race and class. Note that a recent study says that nearly 45,000 people a year die because they don’t have health insurance. Even if that number is high – say it’s really 30,000 – then what kind of society allows that? We spend hundreds of billions to prevent terror attacks that might kill a few hundred or a few thousand people over the next 10 years – not counting our military involvements overseas – and people actively resist saving as many as 450,000 already existing American lives over that same 10 years. What social cohesion is that? It’s silly to focus on 35 hour work weeks and longer vacation time, which is great, when we choose to condemn so many of our own people to death each year.

  • innocentsmithjournal

    Wrangling over statistics, as Chait and Manzi have done today, will not ultimately settle the more fundamental question of values. David Brooks had a great piece a few weeks back — “The Values Question” — in which he argued that “moral preferences” and not “this or that provision” would ultimately determine the outcome of health care reform.

    Wealth redistribution, along with the debate over social democracy, is, I think, a lot like that.

    I have discussed the relationship between values, statistics, and authority (meaning who we deem reliable in these debates) in greater detail at the Innocent Smith Journal:

    http://innocentsmithjournal.wordpress.com/2010/01/06/1124/

  • waltwriston
  • exust

    “But you’re right: the fact that we have more babies and welcome more immigrants and work more hours than the Europeans do allows our nation to play a bigger relative role on the world stage. Which has got to be worth something.”

    Yeah, it’s worth a lot of greenhouse gases… . It’s like those people that argue about a population crisis in China and that it needs more people. Haven’t they or you guys heard about global warming or ecological footprints?

    GDP/Capita comparison is also flawed when you take for instance the trade deficit into account. The dollar will probably have to depreciate to fix this, how much? Who knows. So depending on which exchange rates you use, you get different results in a comparison. Sure using the effective exchange rate helps, but it doesn’t fix everything.

  • alkali

    @JFox: Yeah, but I’d be interested in knowing if we maintained that lead in output per hour, since Western Europeans have chosen less work (and more vacation) over more pay, while Americans have done the opposite.

    [Cross posted from my comment on Manzi's blog:]

    2008 GDP per hour worked, from the OECD website

    75.2 Norway (!)
    55.5 Netherlands
    55.3 USA
    54.7 Ireland
    54.0 Belgium
    53.2 France
    50.5 Germany
    45.9 Sweden
    45.6 Austria
    44.9 UK
    44.7 Switzerland
    44.2 Finland
    43.6 Denmark
    42.5 Spain
    41.1 Italy
    38.3 Japan

    [Comments:

    1) Figures are US$.

    2) Jim Manzi pointed out that Norway's off-the-charts number probably has to do with oil revenue.

    3) I was surprised by Japan's low score.

    4) The US, the Netherlands, France and Germany are all pretty close to equal on this metric. UK/Spain/Italy not so much.]

  • jomiku

    If we’re talking competitiveness over time, consider our military budget. We’ll spend $7 Trillion over the next 10 years and other countries won’t come near that in $ or as a percentage of their spending. We allocate substantial shares of our capital and human resources to the military and a lot of that is not economically productive – or at least not as economically productive as other uses, certainly for the people.

    We used to have a reason for the giant military but the Cold War is over. The War on Terror isn’t really a military thing unless we decide to start using our military power as a real threat – meaning we become ruthless and blow up people we don’t like rather than try to bring them Democracy. The latest terror threat is an example: a guy on a plane. Didn’t involve the military at all.

    GWBush tried to find a reason for the military: spreading Democracy. That hasn’t worked and one can argue it’s made the world less secure. So when will we discuss in public this massive commitment to largely non-economic uses? The amounts dwarf the cost of social programs, certainly of health insurance.

    Our competitors are able to spend a larger share of their GDP on economic and social welfare investments. For how long can we go on doing this?

  • jomiku

    Paul Krugman notes in his blog that he went to the data sources and that it appears a basic mistake was made, that Manzi not only used Europe including the Soviet Bloc – which one must agree is ridiculous – but then seems to have excluded the east in the comparison, thus understating Europe’s share of world output in two ways.

  • tc125231

    I don’t think you have established the credibility of your data set at all, Mr. Manzi.

    I refer empirically minded readers to Krugman.

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/09/european-decline-a-further-note/

    Mr. Fox, a cautionary note. less panels, and more homework, lest you become another talking head.

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