Officiating the Krugman vs. Chicago debate

My throwaway line that some people at the University of Chicago “reeeeaaaally didn’t like Paul Krugman’s article about the state of macroeconomics” has gotten so much traffic, thanks to a link from Krugman, that I feel obliged to go a bit deeper. My observation was occasioned by a conversation with a couple of mild-mannered, open-minded finance professors who aren’t directly involved in the debates at the heart 0f Krugman’s article. They mainly just thought Krugman was being rude and unscholarly.

I don’t think they’re entirely wrong about this, but the sudden discovery in Hyde Park that economist Krugman moonlights as a sharp-penned polemicist seems a little, well, belated. Wounded complaints about Krugman’s popular writings go way back. Here’s Robert Kuttner, in 1996:

Krugman has become the most prolific policy entrepreneur of them all. He may be peddling fatalism rather than activism, but he is no less a peddler. Alas, Krugman’s earlier counsel is correct. It is very difficult to be both a conscientious academic and an effective policy entrepreneur. There aren’t enough hours in the day, and you begin to make mistakes. Your own glibness becomes your worst enemy. In his high-professor role, Krugman equates “anecdote” with unscientific. This apparently leads him to conclude that when in anecdotal, policy-entrepreneur mode, you don’t need to look things up. And as for intellectual cheap shots, well, you can read him yourself.

What’s different is that Kuttner was arguing that “the career of Paul Krugman epitomizes, if in extreme form, how the conventions of the economics profession work to block a resurgence of liberal activism.” Now the Chicagoans are irked that Krugman, whose blog is called “The Conscience of a Liberal,” has become willing to upend the conventions of the economics profession to push a particular politico-economic agenda. That in itself is an interesting switch, and I wish Krugman had more directly confronted his transformation from guy who extolled “the scientific-mathematical outlook that is arguably the true glory of our civilization” to guy who writes that “the economics profession went astray because economists, as a group, mistook beauty, clad in impressive-looking mathematics, for truth.”

But none of that is really relevant to Krugman’s main complaint, which is that the macroeconomic approach incubated at Carnegie Mellon in the 1960s and birthed at the University of Chicago in the 1970s—rational expectations—has proved to be something of a dead end. I wrote a whole book making this point about rational expectations’ sister theory in finance, the efficient market hypothesis, and the Chicagoans I talk to all claim to more or less like the thing. So I’m a little confused as to why they’re so offended by Krugman’s article. I guess I’m just more polite than he is.

What are the substantive complaints with Krugman’s piece? Mark Thoma has the definitive collection of responses and counterresponses, but I’ll go with Chicagoan John Cochrane’s “How did Paul Krugman Get It So Wrong?” to keep it simple. Apart from Krugman’s rudeness, these appear to be Cochrane’s main issues:

1) Nothing about the crash violated the efficient market hypothesis:

The central empirical prediction of the efficient markets hypothesis is precisely that nobody can tell where markets are going—neither benevolent government bureaucrats, nor crafty hedge-fund managers, nor ivory-tower academics.

That’s not quite right. The central empirical prediction of the efficient market hypothesis, as laid out by Eugene Fama at the 1969 annual meeting of the American Finance Association, was that markets would move over time in accordance with the Capital Asset Pricing Model. That is, risky stocks would outperform less-risky ones, with the risk that mattered being something called beta—the correlation of a stock’s movements to those of the overall market. Fama and Ken French concluded in 1992 that this wasn’t so, leaving over only the theory that Cochrane describes above. But in the meantime, finance professors of an efficient markets bent had sold Wall Street on the idea that financial risk could be measured and tidily contained. Oops! Also, a number of smart people did predict that the real estate boom of the early 00s was a bubble that was bound to collapse. They may just have been lucky, of course, but I dunno …

2) This wasn’t a crisis of free financial markets:

The centerpiece of our crash was not the relatively free stock or real estate markets, it was the highly regulated commercial banks.

Depends what you mean by “centerpiece.” The crisis began in the real estate markets, then metastasized into a run on the lightly regulated shadow banking system of securitization and derivatization, then finally spread to commercial banks. The stock market was a comparative bastion of calm and rationality, that’s true. But to say that financial markets in general weren’t part of the problem is an awfully strange reading of the events of the past two years.

3) Macroeconomists actually have been making progress over the past couple of decades:

Macroeconomists have not spent 30 years admiring the eternal verities of Kydland and Prescott’s 1982 paper. Pretty much all we have been doing for 30 years is introducing flaws, frictions and new behaviors, especially new models of attitudes to risk,  and comparing the resulting models, quantitatively, to data.

I’m sure Cochrane is right that macro research has continued apace. And I know from my own reading that Krugman’s piece left out lots of interesting finance work that’s been done on bubbles and crashes and the like. But has any of this contributed significantly to economic policymaking? Not that I know of, not yet. That may be the policymakers’ fault, not the economists’. But the standard policy prescription of economists in the rational expectations tradition is that government shouldn’t try to do anything about macroeconomic fluctuations. While I think that may be the right course (albeit one that is never really followed) in reaction to a garden-variety recession, I’m not so sure in the case of a potential global depression caused by a huge financial shock. And here’s the thing: As best I can tell, modern macro models of almost all stripes don’t really take the financial sector and its influence into account. Which is why Krugman and many others find themselves grasping back to Keynes.

4) Grasping back to Keynes is regressive and unscientific:

Science that moves forward almost never ends up back where it started. Einstein revises Newton, but does not send you back to Aristotle.  At best you can play the fun game of hunting for inspirational quotes, but that doesn’t mean that you could have known the same thing by just reading Keynes once more.

Sorry, but that isn’t going to cut it. Macroeconomics just isn’t a science on par with physics. I’m willing to buy that some parts of microeconomics are awfully science-like, but macro seems way too entwined with cycles in intellectual and political fashion to take itself quite that seriously. This isn’t because macroeconomists are dummies, or evil, or anything like that. It’s just that modeling the whole economy is really hard—almost certainly impossible, in fact.

5) Too much math ain’t the problem:

The problem is that we don’t have enough math. Math in economics serves to keep the logic straight, to make sure that the “then” really does follow the “if,” which it so frequently does not if you just write prose. The challenge is how hard it is to write down explicit artificial economies with these ingredients, actually solve them, in order to see what makes them tick. Frictions are just bloody hard with the mathematical tools we have now.

I don’t think Krugman was saying economists should stop doing math. He was simply warning that math can blind, and in this quote Cochrane seems to make the case for him. Are “frictions” really the key to understanding the economic events of the past couple of years? I don’t know, but Cochrane’s particular mathematical approach seems to compel him to focus on them.

In policy terms, this debate mainly comes down to whether fiscal stimulus makes sense or not. I’d be the first to agree with Cochrane that Krugman’s vigorous pro-stimulus arguments are based more on hunches and guesswork and politics and history than on any kind of rigorous economic model. I’ve been even less impressed, though, with anti-stimulus arguments that claim to be based on rigorous models but are utterly devoid of historical perspective, curiosity and common sense. That’s probably partly a result of my bias as a non-economist semi-intellectual, and I do agree that it’s interesting that Krugman has gone from berating the likes of me to courting us. But I think this disdain for on-the-ground economic reality is something that Cochrane and his intellectual allies are going to have to confront if they don’t want to slide into complete irrelevancy.

Related Topics: macroeconomics, stimulus, Economy & Policy, Wall Street & Markets
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  • pneogy

    Thank you. Illuminating and useful.

  • donthelibertariandemocrat

    A very good summing up. It does come down to the stimulus today. From my perspective, the Chicago Plan of 1933, QE with a Stimulus ( meaning govt borrowing, and not raising taxes ), is what we are using and what we should be using because it is prudent. Fisher, Viner, Knight, and Simons seem not only wiser than the economists nowadays, but much less dogmatic and more practical. They were also much more willing to confront the foundations of the financial system.

    I keep hoping, along with Kay, Buiter, Martin Wolf, Bhide, and Kotlikoff, that Narrow/Limited Banking will get a fair hearing, outside of the FT. Instead, we’re treated every day to some new tinkering plan. That’s better than nothing, but we shouldn’t fool ourselves into thinking that the basics of our Special Interest/ Crony Capitalist Welfare State is changing. Maybe it can’t be changed. It is a very stable arrangement. If so, then we should follow Gorton’s advice and guarantee the Shadow Banking System as well. There’s no reason to not publicize that we have a guarantee on this system, if we do. After all, the people investing in it know that they’re guaranteed.

  • marksadowski

    Nice summary of the “debate” as it stands today.

    I’ll just add the following flippant comments:

    “1) Nothing about the crash violated the efficient market hypothesis:”

    Just one more reason to abandon it.

    “2) This wasn’t a crisis of free financial markets:”

    No, it was crisis inflicted by the unregulated financial markets on the real economy.

    “3) Macroeconomists actually have been making progress over the past couple of decades:”

    Neo-Classical macroeconomists have been playing “doll house economics” for the last 30 years. Too bad it had nothing to do with anything of any real importance (such as public policy).

    “4) Grasping back to Keynes is regressive and unscientific:”

    Ignorance of Keynes is far worse. Grasping back to the Treasury View, Hangover Theory and Say’s Law is even worse.

    “5) Too much math ain’t the problem:”

    But too much of the wrong kind of math is. A little less DSGE mental masturbation and a little more empirical econometric macroeconomic analysis just might be in order. (You know, that “reality” thing.)

  • jomiku

    Nicely put. #4 is mendacious.

    I understand that you focused on Cochrane but Krugman also made space for Mulligan’s rather odd comments about unemployment being a vacation – apparently caused by the incentive of unemployment insurance! I assume that might fall in the category you mention regarding common sense (and lack of), along with the truly weird arguments that every dollar automatically and by deus ex machina displaces a dollar, as though the pre-Einsteinian ether allowed instantaneous communication at a distance.

    That said, it seems rather odd to complain about the unseemliness of public argument when it’s now clear that this kind of economics has cloaked itself in mantles of objective truth when it is in fact a set of subjective disciplines that dance to the tune of the practitioner’s political leanings. Find me a liberal liquidationist because if this stuff were more than unprovable theories based on iffy data derived from murky pasts, then we’d have consensus which would subsume political differences. One need not be a Democrat to believe in the Standard Model or a Republican to believe in one of the Dark Matter theories. There is, in other words, value in raising the veil so we may see the ugly truth that macroeconomics is not hard science.

  • tc125231

    Excellent points. I’m just an old businessman in the high tech sector, but i have seen more fancy arithmetic and mathematics that was demonstrably inaccurate in the last twenty years than I can even record.

    Imagine being in a realm where nobody really cares if it’s accurate because –after all –they are (extremely) highly paid academics! Besides, as Justin said, macroeconomics is COMPLICATED. Who can prove you wrong?

    Not only is the freshwater crowd clueless –they are uninterested in NOT being clueless.

  • nooman

    Justin
    this old Mankiw piece is an earlier and similar (and more polite) analysis. Mankiw makes the distinctions between ‘scientists’ and ‘engineers’ when referring to the Ivory Tower Chicagoan RBC theorists vs the practical Keynesian engineers.

    Mankiw also concluded (in 2006) that ‘nearly 30 years of theorizing’ hadn’t advanced us that far

    http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/mankiw/files/Macroeconomist_as_Scientist.pdf

  • gappy

    I don’t think there much to discuss about this post, since most statements are vague, e.g., on the role of Mathematics or on progress in Macro. I just want to point out that the first item in the list, the only one containing some actual reference, is simply incorrect.

    It is not true that:

    “The central empirical prediction of the efficient market hypothesis, as laid out by Eugene Fama at the 1969 annual meeting of the American Finance Association, was that markets would move over time in accordance with the Capital Asset Pricing Model.”

    CAPM, and all factor models, are *much* stronger than the EMH, i.e., they imply the EMH, but are not implied by it. CAPM’s predictions are also much, much stronger. This was made abundantly clear by the empirical tests summarized by Fama in survey of the empirical literature in 1970 and 1997. If one wants to get an assessment of empirical tests of the EMH provided by scholars other than Fama, the recent survey by Andy Lo and the textbook by Campbell et al “The Econometrics of Financial Markets” can confirm this point.

    Incidentally, to point out the inadequacy of CAPM, one should mention the seminal papers by Roll in the seventies. All of this has nothing to do with the EMH. Fama and French in 1992 was aimed at advancing factor models, not defending the EMH from CAPM’s (or any one-factor model) empirical failure.

    It is rather sad that Fox is officiating this debate, if only in his own mind. In my understanding, referees are supposed to know the rules of the game. Fox is a self-described “non-economist semi-intellectual” who clearly doesn’t intimately understand what he’s talking about. The impression one gets is that he’s dancing about architecture, and he doesn’t realize it.

    -Giuseppe Paleologo

  • ezzie83

    “Science that moves forward almost never ends up back where it started. Einstein revises Newton, but does not send you back to Aristotle.”

    I hate when economists pretend to know things they clearly don’t understand. Einstein did almost exactly what Cochrane implies he didn’t – he didn’t take us back to Aristotle, but he did take us back to Galileo.

    Galileo had posited the core of the relativity principle about 300 years before Einstein did. There is no preferred state of motion for investigating the laws of physics – any two people will find the same laws of physics so long as they are not accelerating relative to each other.

    Over time, this was limited to mechanics. Physicists studying electromagnetism thought that there was a single privileged state of motion for investigating light, you should be at rest with regard to the ether.

    The core of what Einstein did in special relativity was to reassert Galileo’s theory of relativity applied to all physics, and to emphasise that the speed of light is a law of physics. Most of the rest is implications of that insight.

  • hunterlewis3

    Marksadowski is incorrect to suggest that Keynes refuted Say’s Law. I go into this in some detail in my new book, Where Keynes Went Wrong. It is also odd for Nooman to talk about “practical Keynesians.” It doesn’t seem practical to me to blow up bubbles and then try to fix them with more the same debt that caused the problem in the first place.

  • http://twitter.com/justinmicklefox Justin Fox

    Welcome to the blog, hunterlewis3. I have a copy of your book right here, and this reminds me that I really ought to read it!

  • hunterlewis3

    Thanks. I hope you like it.

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  • hotbbq

    I’m way out of my league here (no formal economics education to speak of), so hopefully I won’t make a complete fool of myself. I just wanted to add a small anecdote.

    I work as a software engineer and I see a parallel to this economic debate. The process of writing a large piece of software is separated into two general phases, designing it and implementing that design. As it often goes, the people designing these complex architectures (systems engineers) have little to do with actually hammering out the code that implements that design (which is left to the software engineers). The problem with this is that the design rarely reflects what is actually the best way to go about writing a piece of software. Much time and effort is wasted in revising the architecture to reflect observed best practices after the fact.

    It seems to me that the Chicago brand of economics would be wise to incorporate more ‘observed best practices’ into their models. That way good policy can be written from a good architecture.

  • aaronb1013

    Sadowski doesn’t know the field. Anyone inside macro will tell you that the math-intensive side is empirical macro (i.e. higher order approximations to DSGE models and the particle filter). People should be aware that Krugman has not contributed to a significant economic journal in over a decade. No wonder his C.V. is filled with books and NY times articles. Today he is considered a joke inside the discipline. He also comes from the trade side of economics which is dominated by static models and ornate graphs. Most people on the micro side consider trade to be a decade behind in terms of modeling tools (one might call trade economists the people greeters of economics). Not to mention it has little intersection with the dynamic models that dominate the macro side. I sincerely doubt Krugman is aware of the work that is currently occuring on the macro side. Or in his own field for that matter.

  • http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2009/10/08/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-the-efficient-market-hypothesis/ A post about EMH, CAPM and MBAs – The Curious Capitalist – TIME.com

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  • marksadowski

    @aaronb1013,

    You wrote:
    “Sadowski doesn’t know the field. Anyone inside macro will tell you that the math-intensive side is empirical macro (i.e. higher order approximations to DSGE models and the particle filter).”

    Em, except that I’m an applied macroeconomist.

    My point was not that DSGE is not math-intensive (obviously it is). My point is that it’s the wrong kind of math. In practice it amounts to fitting preconceived models (beating them mercilessly with a rubber hose is more like it) to the data. It tells us more about the ideology of a particular economist than it does about the real world.

    I wasted years studying such macro simply because it was the current fad. And math was hardly a problem for me as I already had 30 graduate hours in theoretical and applied math and, consequently, easily eclipsed my graduate school colleagues. And thanks to DSGE’s nearly universal assumption of complete markets there is no possibility of illiquidity or insolvancy. In the words of Charles Goodhart, “it excludes everything I am interested in.”

  • http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2009/10/09/ignoring-ben-bernanke/ Ben Bernanke believes in rational expectations, and other macroeconomic stuff – The Curious Capitalist – TIME.com

    [...] economics, federal reserve The Great Macro Debate never ends. Reader Adam Ozimek writes, quoting me being snotty about rational-expectations macroeconomics: "But has any of this contributed significantly to economic policymaking? Not that I know of, not [...]

  • http://permut.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/paul-krugman-on-metaphors-and-models/ Paul Krugman on Metaphors and Models « Permutations

    [...] Krugman on Metaphors and Models Paul Krugman has spent a lot of time recently criticizing economists associated with the Chicago School because he believes they are making horrible public policy [...]

  • http://permut.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/forced-to-defend-rational-choice-theory/ Forced to Defend Rational Choice Theory « Permutations

    [...] Some mainstream economists even argue that an overdependence on the assumption of rationality has led large segments of modern macroeconomics astray.  This is a debate worth having.  As Nelson notes, even in economics, the discipline most closely [...]

  • aaronb1013

    Well I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you say “a little less DSGE…and a little more empirical econometric analysis”. The “all powerful” SVAR has no significance if we can’t interpret it’s coefficients. That’s why we have DSGE models. We linearize solutions to the models and we turn those SVAR coefficients into structural parameters. Changing structural parameters allows us to simulate the counterfactual scenarios. Which is the ultimate goal of Macroeconomics. I don’t know any legitimate empirical macro work today that isn’t tied to a DSGE model. Furthermore, we get even less restrictive functional forms from higher order approximations; so you might say they can beat SVARs. Sure, nothing beats an AR(1) or an SVAR right now; but someday, if we keep working, we’ll get the right model. BTW, there are plenty of papers coming out about insolvency using DSGE models. Just follow the optimal credit literature.

  • http://js594.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/school-of-free-markets/ school of free markets « roman holiday

    [...] officiating the krugman vs. chicago debate by justin fox My throwaway line that some people at the University of Chicago “reeeeaaaally didn’t like Paul Krugman’s article about the state of macroeconomics” has gotten so much traffic, thanks to a link from Krugman, that I feel obliged to go a bit deeper. My observation was occasioned by a conversation with a couple of mild-mannered, open-minded finance professors who aren’t directly involved in the debates at the heart 0f Krugman’s article. They mainly just thought Krugman was being rude and unscholarly. [...]

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