Scoring the Barry Ritholtz-John Carney CRA debate

The John Carney-Barry Ritholtz debate on whether the Community Reinvestment Act caused the financial crisis has a strangely retro feel to it. It’s just so … 2008. It started with Clusterstock’s Carney explaining, in a long, thoughtful post, why he had changed his mind about the 1977 law meant to bring more bank lending to poor and minority communities. Yeah, he used to think blaming CRA was just a silly Republican talking point. But he has become convinced that the CRA, or at least the big-time mid-1990s rewrite of the CRA rules by bank regulators, was a major factor in the relaxation of home lending standards that ended so badly a couple of years ago.

Ritholtz promptly accused Carney of “agnotology”—a word I had never encountered before (and which does not appear in my American Heritage College Dictionary) that means “the study of culturally constructed ignorance“—and challenged him to a debate with $100,000 going to the winner. Carney is currently trying the raise the $100,000 stake, and Felix Salmon has recruited the FT‘s John Gapper and BusinessWeek‘s Michael Mandel as judges.

I think the most difficult judging exercise will be in determining just how culpable the CRA has to be for Carney to win the debate. It’s pretty clear it’s not the sole cause or even the main cause. To paraphrase that great CRA expert Phil Gramm (from my account of a Gramm appearance at the American Enterprise Institute back in January):

The decades-long push from Washington to increase home ownership metastasized into a de facto government mandate to make bad loans. Gramm told this story really well. He mentioned the Community Reinvestment Act as an element of this push, but immediately dismissed the argument—made by lots of Republicans during the election campaign—that it was decisive. “Don’t get subprime lending confused with lending to poor people,” he said at one point. “There’s not any evidence to substantiate that subprime lending was worse among poor people than not among poor people.” … The biggest issue, he seemed to be saying, was that by the early 2000s regulators and Congress and the White House had all basically embraced the idea—whether they meant to or not—that there was no such thing as a bad mortgage loan. And he didn’t exempt himself from culpability for that.

Gramm has been less nuanced about this in print, claiming that:

Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) requirements led regulators to foster looser underwriting and encouraged the making of more and more marginal loans. Looser underwriting standards spread beyond subprime to the whole housing market.

That’s still more a story of the CRA as unwitting spark than CRA as proximate cause, though. And it’s the argument of Phil Gramm, a key architect of some other legislative moves that may also be to blame for the crisis. So I’m leaning toward Barry’s side in this. But he has defined the debate question as, “Is the CRA significantly to blame for the credit crisis?” I dunno. Define significant.

Update: In an e-mail, Barry Ritholtz defines significant:

Important /  meaningful / major — not minor /unimportant /

or

Would the event X  have occured but for Y taking place?

or

Make a list of  the 50 factors involved in any incident — does X come in your top 10%?   How about Top 20%?
The really nice thing about the list is that you  can see what is omitted and placed way below these items.

Also, I like this “thought experiment” by Barry on what the world would look like if CRA were in fact behind the crisis.

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  • donthelibertariandemocrat

    Perhaps someone on this blog could help me understand this debate. I’m trying to be schematic here. The CRA, I thought, gave lenders a percentage of loans that they needed to fulfill, if they could. Presumably, that list will always be some small portion of the lender’s overall list of loans. Hence, even if the government tells you to increase the percentage, and you loosen your lending standards, the amount of such loans would still be quite limited.

    The other argument, I thought, was that the CRA changes had an influence on GSEs, causing them to loosen their standards. Here, the loosening, outside of the implicitly guaranteed GSEs, would still be small, since it makes no sense for a lender to loosen standards more than an implicitly guaranteed GSE.

    Now, how do we get to subprimes? How does the loosening contagion spread? The only answer that I can come up with that makes sense is that lenders were assuming that they were implicitly guaranteed. Otherwise, there seems no cogent reason for the contagion. It’s possible, of course, that lenders, seeing some loosening of other lenders, went insane and forgot basic rules of lending, but how could the government be responsible for that? You can blame the government for not stopping such insane lending practices, but you can hardly blame the government for idiotic investing based on one of the strangest extrapolations of business practices that I’ve ever come across.

    If I’m the only person perplexed by this debate, I apologize. I’m simply wondering if others are as confused about this debate as I am.

  • dadfox

    I don’t usually agree with Phil Gramm but I do in this case.

  • http://cnbcsucks.wordpress.com cnbcsucks

    The Great CNBC Sucks is friendly to both Cranky Ritholtz and John “When are you going to email me back?” Carney. I am staying neutral on this debate. It’s a fortunate thing for whomever I would have not chosen, trust me. Ask John McCain.

    And Don…Libertarian Democrat? I am not surprised at all that you are “perplexed”.

  • http://cnbcsucks.wordpress.com cnbcsucks

    One more thing, I would take Carney if it were a drinking contest and Ritholtz if it were a hot dog eating contest.

  • pneogy

    Economics, with its endless debates that arrive at no conclusions, has finally become a branch of obscurantism.

  • toadal

    Barry Ritholtz has defined his challenge far too narrowly, since to someone closely following these events it was not what the CRA did, but what the Federal government threatened to do in 1994 to nonbank lenders that didn’t significantly increase lending to disadvantaged minorities. Political pressure can be very persuasive.

    The Clinton Administration said they would seek to extend Community Reinvestment Act regulations to all mortgage bankers. As a result, the Mortgage Bankers Association (MBA) pledged to increase lending to disadvantaged minorities. Countrywide Financial was the first MBA member to sign up and subsequently increased their financial pledge annually until by 2004 Countrywide’s chairman, Mr. Mozilo and its board, pledged $1 TRILLION DOLLARS to effect equal outcomes for minorities.

    Steve Sailer has carefully documented the mortgage meltdown on his blog and does want to debate Barry Ritholtz, but whether CRA significantly caused the real estate meltdown but whether the uncritical pursuit of diversity was a major factor.

  • donthelibertariandemocrat

    I’ve read Mozilo’s testimony here:

    http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20080307121803.pdf

    I don’t see it substantiating what’s being put forth. If anything, he seems a firm believer in loosening standards to make money. He’s calling for the government to reduce standards, not saying that he’s being pressured into them. Anyway, read it yourself.

  • http://cnbcsucks.wordpress.com cnbcsucks

    I realized that my second comment above (#4) may be interpreted as something other than flippant and good-natured, which were intended, and particularly the “drinking contest” was meant to characterize Carney as a man’s man and the “hot dog eating contest” to characterize Barry as a teddy bear type in my usual affectionate way toward him. Let there be no misunderstanding whatsoever. The Great CNBC Sucks likes both men, and it should be an exciting debate.

    BTW I have volunteered with Felix to be a tiebreaker judge.

    @toadal: Of course, Ritholtz is debating the challenge narrowly. The repeated specific reference to CRA by the right (and Carney is not particularly right-wing, I should add) as a significant cause of the meltdown is the issue to which Barry has personally taken exception. Why should he put up his own money to debate anything broader than that which offends his sensibilities, or something that is so amorphous, philosophical, and subjective that it can neither be proven or disproven by facts? Assuming he debates Carney, I also propose that the public consider whether Ritholtz should be granted some sort of special handicap for putting up his own capital.

  • http://www.abnormalreturns.com/2009/07/wednesday-links-the-next-bubble/ Wednesday links: the next bubble Abnormal Returns

    [...] Scoring the debate over the culpability of the CRA for the housing crisis.  (Curious Capitalist) [...]

  • codonyer

    Is this real or only a strategy?

    Sergi Codonyer

  • Justin Fox

    Is this the real life? Or is this just fantasy?

  • Justin Fox

    Caught in a landslide. No escape from reality.

  • http://cnbcsucks.wordpress.com cnbcsucks

    Justin – Good comeback, I love Queen. This is a good blog for an MSM effort and I should also add that Time itself has more than stood the test of time, pun intended. I like how you used WordPress. You should make some comments on the Ritholtz blog and others so you can give “Curious Capitalist” exposure on the blogosphere.

    Regards, The Great CNBC Sucks

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